Lost Roads - Chat

[bob]

Steve,

i was just looking through the roads thread again

http://newton-le-willows.com/history/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=984

and what i can not seem to understand is why in this section of your illustration would the old road seem to double back on itself.



I have marked with yellow dots the route on the old map and how i suspect it continued onwards towards Winwick, and put red dots on the double back, we know there is a delph like cutting in the hillside as we took pictures a few weeks ago, so why do you think they would not use the lower cutting and in favour of struggling a cart around a muddy tight track as it would then be, plus the shape of the land where the coloured dots change seem to indicate that it was at some time dug out of the natural, why should this be so, i am starting to think at the time of the battle of 1648 the area there was a form of crossroads and a very good place to stage an ambush.
Maybe there was a building there prior to the battle, and at which time i would image it getting destroyed, i know there have been no reports about a destroyed house there, only ones in Newton and i think that was from another battle.

bob

[Steven]

Bob

I did look at that alignment, of your yellow line out of Hermitage Green Lane and along that first hedge row towards Winwick but discounted it , because the text i was reading contained details of a letter describing a walk, sometime in the later years of the 1600s, walking back to Winwick from Red Bank, along Hermitage Green Lane, past the Cromwell's well on the left (osiers well) and then turning right in the lane to take the road back to Winwick

to fit this description, they would have walked 'past' the well shown on the left, Osiers, which only occurs 'after' your suggested yellow line leaves Hermitage Green Lane, your suggested yellow dotted road was too soon in the lane, to be the one they described that they took to Winwick.

Also, the Hermitage Green Lane end of the yellow line which you show, struck me as maybe being an old quarry site?, it also didn't align to the only road shown on the old maps we have to be leaving the Winwick Village towards Hermitage Green Lane, and the road further up the lane which I highlighted looked more prominent, being the largest and most defined road off Hermitage Green lane heading in the direction of Winwick, it was after the Osier well so it matched the description, and it also aligned across the fields with the only road out of Winwick heading towards Hermitage Green Lane road

On top of that, when i checked the different maps, I found other reasons, the 1849 map shows the roads I chose have access into the fields, passing through and past the houses nearest there parting from hermitage Green Lane, where-as the area you have put a supposed road through from Winwick doesn't on any older map that shows the area even show an access or hint of an access road, from hermitage green lane up onto the fields at that point to Winwick?

There are only two other small entries shown on the southern 'Winwick side' of hermitage green lane, these are both at a point where you would have passed Osiers well, and would fit the description of the ladies walk, but on inspection of the 1849 map, they both seem to only go, to the cottages against them, like driveways, they do not seem to go past the cottages into the fields beyond, as the road I chose obviously does, so I discounted these.

Another reason I chose the route I did, was that the route I showed, is still visible easily on maps, I have already mentioned the 1849 map, but it is also marked clearly as a footpath on the 1908 map, just as I would expect it to be, I doubt an out of use road from only 400yrs ago to totally disappear from the landscape, and I think it would be natural to find it in a later map, maybe not still a road or lane, but as a footpath, showing as such for a few years, and so I also find my route as a footpath in the 1923 and 1933 maps, and this adds to the case for the route i chose being the old road, in none of these maps, is their any hint of the route you show, being either a road or footpath, with no access being shown on any maps, from Hermitage Green lane on any map, right up to the 1933.

The oldest clearest map we have is the 1849 map, nothing at the Winwick end, or the Hermitage green end even slightly suggests that there is a road where you have drawn ?

You say that there is a cut back on the road that i have highlighted, I presume you mean the dog leg and joining of the old road to the point half way down Hermitage Green, and not the cut back on the Newer section to the older Hermitage Green lane at Red Bank, The Red Bank new road junction cutback, I believe may have something to do with the new road sticking to the field boundary against the stream, and then cutting around to join the older road square directly at the junction, where as the old road meets Hermitage Green Lane, at a group of houses, which it seems to pass between, I don't think this meeting between houses being a dogleg really matters, when these roads were in use, they were for horse and carts, not cars, for the same reason that most old English lanes go around the corners of fields, and no one bothered to straighten them out over the years, looking at a cutback or dogleg with a modern eye is maybe the wrong thing to do. your cutback, just might be where everyone accepted the lane went around Claude Smiths garden

I think your hedge line is a feature of the way the older fields were separated by the new Winwick Road, I think if you look at all the fields in Newton, you would be hard pressed to find a set of equally shared, similar sized fields, in the hedge line landscape that an overall view of the 1849 map shows us, I think its telling, that the fields on the west side of the A49 from Winwick, are scattered and odd sized, looking original and old, but the fields on the Eastern side are similar sized, rectangular, oddly similar, and all backing on to your suggested yellow dotted road from H G L to Winwick. In most things, I think if it looks odd and fake, it probably is, and I think this hedge row which the yellow dots run, looks man made..

There are fields which align naturally, better than this all over the area, but I would never suggest they are roads, unless, something else in the area added to the argument for them being a road, I think it to easily causes confusion when you look at one map, and make a diagnosis, where hedges align can mean a road, it can mean a footpath, but it can just be hedges that align.

There were probably other houses in that area, I would guess that the Point which my old road meets Hermitage Green Lane, and along the lane at the dog leg in the junctions might have been some sort of small sub village of Newton, sitting right on the edge of the Newton Deer Park, trouble is that there doesnt seem to be too much of anything showing in the maps we have, even though the same maps, show some fields and routes of roads in other areas to have hardly changed for what must be almost 1000 years, Towns Field Lane for example. So to suggest that one area can have its roads 'lost' to the maps, suggesting roads and fields 'may have existed' once, you must at the same time, suggest why on the same map, other 1000 year old features still exist as fields and roads...

I don't think what you marked yellow leaving Hermitage Green towards Winwick is a road, i doubt it would pass even simple investigation of the maps we have, I don't think its anything other than a recent man made hedge aligned to the back of the fields separated for the new Winwick to Red Bank road..

I am sure there were other buildings in the area, that we have missed, and I do not really have any suggestion for where they would be

Steven Dowd

[bob]

Good point about the wordage in the letter, this is the lady writing after the battle one is it not, but as to roads or Old Lost Roads as the topic is entitled, and to how long they are visible for after they are no longer used, i am uploading 2 pictures, the first showing a long gone farm at the top of Rob lane right side in 1820, and a recent aerial shot, i have put blue dots as markers as i do not have your expertise on overlaying, and red dots to as where the old roads should be, to be honest i think one small part can still be made out and i have put one yellow dot there, the reason this came to my attention is because our friendly digger driver asked me to look into it as he dug up stone when plowing, i have no idea how long that farm was in existence or even its name, i do not think it was there long or Lane and Philpot may have mentioned it, but my point is even after 180 years a road can disappear.
Bob

[Steven]

Bob, I agree, a road can disappear

But in the case you have shown, there is an actual end of the road, a junction, onto the other road, so it did exist, and is shown as a junction on the map, i checked just the 1849, and there is also a clearly shown junction on that as well.. oddly though in 1849 there is no farm shown, and the access to the spot looks to come in through the field from Copp Lane direction, near the Queen Ann Inn

But again, there is at least an access point shown on the map

The yellow dotted line you drew out of Hermitage Green Lane, heading along that hedge alignment to Winwick, doesn't show any access point on any map, where-as the other road further down the lane, even on the later maps, and even today, has access points, and footpaths still showing.

I can understand more the disappearance of your example from one map to the next available map, even if only 40 or 50 years had passed , because at first glance it seems an access point to a house, a its singular purpose track, like a drive way, but I wouldn't accept in the same way a disappearance for a route between Winwick to Newton joining Hermitage Green Lane, it would take a lot bigger event, than one family moving out of the area, the knocking of their farm down, and then the natural later loss of their driveway on a map, to make a lane between towns disappear from all maps

Steven Dowd

[She]

Great read so thanks Bob & Steven.
In the last few weeks I have learned so much about roads, old maps and recognising signs of this and that.

As a slight wibble, I have always been curious about 'Old school Road' which is to the left of the A49 before Winwick (having passed HG Lane on the left).
I have frequently wondered if there was an old school house sited there similar to what was at Dean Dam. If this was the case, it seems that several old shool houses were in what we would now call remote areas- as in- not the centre of major populations as we know them to be now.

Any thoughts about the school near Hermitage Green Lane and how this fits in with the greater logistics picture of olde?

[Steven]

Hello She

Old School Lane at Winwick, did originally have a school on it

There were a could of schools at Winwick, a free school, and i believe two boarding schools, One was in the old Winwick Hall, which used to stand near the entrance to Hollin's Park, one of School Lane, I one I think of Myddleton Lane

I am not so sure of Winwick History, so I cannot place them exactly for you..

There is a History of Winwick by William Beaumont that might have more detail, I will see what it says later.

I will probably get this all wrong, but I seem to remember that in the early settlement of America, there was a guy called Mather or Mathews, from Lowton, who was schooled at the 'Old School Lane' School in Winwick, who was one of the forefathers of the either the Methodist or Baptist Church in America

Steven Dowd

[bob]

Steve there are only 2 on the 1849 map, maybe there is another near to the hall, -


and the Lowton guy, look here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Mather

[Steven]

Winwick Hall, was used as a grammer school,

This drawing is from an 1870s Lancashire and Cheshire Historical Society article, which described the local area, and included this image which was titled Winwick Hall, although on the drawing itself, its noted as the Winwick Grammer School, I guess it was already in use as a school in the 1870s when the sketch was done



I believe that this Winwick Hall, is the place that the Cromwell letters describe as being the "well stocked" Hall which was taken by the Royalists in their retreat from Red Bank. It was located just inside the grounds of Winwick, Inside the current entrance to Hollin's Park

As I said earlier, I knew of only three schools, but I suppose there could have been more, I have heard of the Girls School, the free School and the Grammer School. I have never bothered reading to much about Winwick though, I tend to just look up details on area's outside of Newton as needed.

Steven Dowd

[bob]

Steve, i have just come across 2 wells called Osiers not far from Leigh, i remember you mentioning the well by the same name in this thread, so i thought i would mention what one dictionary gives as to the origin of the word,

osier

species of willow used in basket-work, c.1300, from O.Fr. osier "willow twig" (13c.), from M.L. osera "willow," ausaria "willow bed," of unknown origin, perhaps from Gaulish.

and i recall you mentioning some sort of weaving industry in HGL area,
Question is what other info do you have about it, was there any buildings to go with this industry.
Bob

[bob]

Just before you go off towards St Helens following the road, it may help if we look east a tad more,
as the old phrase says, in order to know where your going, you need to know where you have come from!
Ok well i have been going over all we know about Winwick bit by bit, i think you may have guessed that from my last Mill post i made,
the updated maps on Google are bringing up a few new features, which has changed my mind about the road system around Winwick, but what time period we are talking about can be anyone's guess,
first i will add this section of map from earlier on in this topic, it shows your red and blue lines as the road system,
i have put a green line addition to it as to where i think very early roads once where, -

new road.jpg

The reasons for my green lines are based on 2 things, one the known double ditch enclosure in Hermitage Green Lane could have been a focal point around 642 ad, and this would mean many a road or footpath would have radiated from and to it,
the other point is that road with a sudden 90" bend for no apparent reason have always caught my attention as to what could have transpired to have made them like this, in this 1924 map it shows several 90" bends which can not be explained other than at one time the road continued, especially the old road coming from Winwick actually has a sharp turn in it at the end just before it meets HGL, so a road can be drawn through the 90" bends to make a sensible line towards southworth and Croft and Culcheth, this to me is an ancient road probably as old as Townfield lane in Newton, and i suspect the striaght section of road in front of the Hermit Pub is relatively modern,

1924a.jpg

one of the most interesting things i have noticed came from the 1972 Ariel shot we have, i am up loading a dual shot of the field opposite the OLD girls school in Winwick, i think the old road is called school lane, it shows hardly anything on the Google shot, but on the 1972 shot several road like lines can be made out, where they where going i do not know, maybe there was not only one road north out of Winwick, plus this shot also shows what looks like a small field system, maybe that was wartime veg patches but that field seems to have been there empty on the 1849, 1891, and even the Yates map.
so possible a road or cart track may have gone in the direction of Cop Holt,
i will have a look at the west direction over the next week but for now i will hazard a guess if there is a road it goes towards Moss Bank,

1972-google dual2.jpg

Steve feel free to put this in one of the other listed topics.
Bob

[bob]

Steve, you want to trace the road from HGL towards St Helens, well i suspect on this 1972 shot,
an old road from Bradley Hall may be going in that direction, or it could just be a drain! more likely an old footpath at least,
Bob

[Steven]

Hi Bob

I checked on that last year, its a whole set of water, and gas pipes. that snakes right the way across the landscape towards ikea.

Steven Dowd

[bob]

Hi Steve, yes i remember talking to you about the pipeline, and it is pain to see on the above picture,
but i meant the small line below it, may be this 1849 picture will show you what i mean,
the orange line is the pipeline, i have put blue dots along the suspect old path so as to be able to see the line
clearly on the map.
Bob

col green 1849.jpg

[Steven]

hi

Yes, thats a road, the first section from St Helens is still shown on the early maps, this was a road long before the one we have now, which we currently go across penkford bridge and up the common road, there was no road across the common, and penkford bridge never existed,

But, were jumping around all over the place, so if we can, let me get some time together over the weekend, and then i'll make a post all the way from southworth through to burtonwood and st helens, including the fords at red house and by the sugar works from the cross lane road to bradlegh. Its a whole load of roads, that needs really to be done all at once or they might not make sense.

Steven Dowd

[Oldbiker]

Fascinating topic Steve and your indepth research and findings will take some time to digest, understand and appreciate properly!. However I noticed the reference to the lane that turned left from the A49 opposite the Bloody Stone and that it once led to the Cemetery area. I recall as a boy in the 1940s walking down a pathway which went by the right of the Cemetery ( viewed from Park Rd ) linking up to a fairly good wide road that went under the railway line and ended up on the A49. In the middle 50s I sometimes used this route on my bicycle to get me to and from Warrington where I worked. My bike was then my " pride and joy " and no way would I have taken it across fields and along rough tracks so the whole route must have been quite a fair one.

I no longer live in N le W but a few months back I was visiting the Cemetery and noticed that housing development had closed the old pathway that ran alongside it. My curiosity aroused I explored the area and picked up the route further south of the Cemetery and couldn't believe that it was by now a hardly discernable ( in places ) track leading to the railway bridge. I was convinced I was in the right spot but the goodish track I had used 50 years ago was almost lost.

I also remember as a lad walking across the fields behind the houses in Golborne Dale Rd, crossing the railway line and walking down a wide cinder track to the private road where Mere House is situated. I had a theory that before the age of steam this track once extended to the Bull Houses in Golborne Dale Rd and continued over the other railway line, across the fields coming out by Barlow's Cottages that used to stood on Newton Rd---they were at a bit of an angle from that road and could well have been originally alongside a track long gone.

I'm sure you will come up with a theory Steve---Keep up the good work

Cheers

Ian