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Roads & Mills
This is something which I have been kicking around in my head, and on scraps of notes for a few weeks, and rather than just forget it, I have decided to put it here in the forum, maybe someone will spend a few minutes reading through it and comment, maybe this will help clear some of the questions i still have not got answers to, or lead me in a different direction which might open a new line of enquiry,
Newton-le-Willows : Website Owner / Administrator
http://steven-dowd.co.uk -- Blog http://newton-le-willows.com -- History Site http://earlestown.com -- (same)
Roads & Mills
Roads & Mills, An Introduction
Last year I spent quite a bit of time looking at local different maps, trying to figure out the older road system from the newer roads that we see today. This happened to coincide with a discussion that I had with Bob and others about local Mills, and where they were located. Basically there are / were 4 different Mills known about in the locality,
 Red marks show the Mills listed above It might seem odd to start this post talking about old roads, then start listing the known Mills, but I think the two are very related, and that the Mills and their locations have helped to mould the road system we now have. So in this post I might be moving back and forth between Mills and Roads as needed, I just hope you can keep up and follow my oddball thinking. Another of the things I spoke to Bob about, concerned the disappearance of mills, particularly Dean Mill, we wondered what could lead to the demise of a mill, especially at a time that most everyone grew their own food, and how, when lots of people survived by having their own grain ground at the local mill, would a mill go out of business and disappear. One of the only reasons that we could think, was that another mill, had somehow put Dean Mill out of business, or that the Lord of the Manor had 'preferred' his tenants to use his own Mill, and that it left Dean Mill with next to no clients, until eventually it went out of business. Mill History There are very few records that give details to the dates of the mills, we know that they are pretty ancient, but I wonder like the chicken and egg, what comes first, the Mill, or the Road that you travel to it, what I wondered is whether the Mill locations, determine the old Road Routes. In 1902 farrer published details of records from the lancashire Pipe Rolls, and in page 131 of that publication he mentions that the Rolls from the years 1200-1204 mention 'mills' in Newton, it is suggested that the plural mention, confirms at least two mills existed at that time, though the Pipe Rolls do not give any proper details locations, but we do know that they were held / owned by the Banastras who were the lords of the manor for that period. In another text by a historian called Raines, its found that in 1289 Matthew of Haydock was granted rights of use to the mills in Newton, but again as with most of the early documents that have been researched, no topographical information is given from which to enable the mill sites to be located. It isn't really until the 17th century that we get any texts that really start to give locations or details of the mills, though it must be said that the Legh Survey of 1465 does quite well with the location of Bradley Mill, saying that the mill of Agnes de Bradleigh was on the Sankey Brook. Bradley Mill was in the domain of Burtonwood and a part of the Bradley Estate. Farrer in another text published in 1910 makes mention of a document he found which states that 'In 1554 Sir Thomas Langton, to whose ancestors the fee of Maker-field and barony of Newton had descended, sold property including two mills to Sir John Byron and others' (John Byron from other records seems to hold most of his properties in the Lowton area, so this might allude to Dean Mill and one other? ) A historian named Tanning in 1892 found details in old documents, which stated that In 1655 Newton Hall and Mill, while the property of Sir Richard Fleetwood, were broken into and presumably damaged, according to the wording of the document implies that the two properties stood in close proximity, so it is likely that the mill in 1655 stood in its present position on Newton Brook about 50m from the site of Newton Hall. Its easy overlook the mill owners, these land owners would have influence in the mills and roads, though the Legh's are probably the better known family, they arrive in Newton quite late in the scheme of things, The Legh's having a longer history at Bradley Hall in Burtonwood, In 1660 'Newton Milne' and Dam, together with the manor house and the chief rents were sold by Thomas Fleetwood to Richard Legh and its only from then, that the Newton mills subsequently formed part of the Legh estates (details of this sale are in the John Rylands Library, Manchester, Legh Deeds AA 13). During the 18th century lots more detailed information starts to become available for us to search through, with Benjamin Yoxhall producing the 1745 estate map which is the first map to show the exact location for the the Newton mill and its dam, even showing a malt kiln nearby in Mill Lane. Red Bank Mill is first recorded in the Legh Papers in 1716, it stood on the northern side of the Newton Brook at Red Bank, this mill was supplied with water from Newton Brook, being downstream from Newton Mill, Red Bank Mill had a man made leet by a diversion in the stream and a weir constructed by a few hundred yards north west of the mill site. Specific mention of Dean Mill first appears in the Newton Court Books for 1681 when two local inhabitants are required to 'scour the brook between Deane pitts and Dean milne' (details are found in the John Rylands Library, Manchester, Legh Deeds PA 2) and Dean Mill is also shown on the 1745 Legh estate Map of Newton by Yoxall, showing a structure just against the Dean Dam as the Dean Mill, though it is just outside the actual Newton township boundary, being sited in Haydock. Ok, this is probably enough detail for now of the Mills, what I would like to do is take you back to the local road system. Local Roads & Mills Aa number of months ago, I put forward the suggestion on the website that Dr Kuerden in 1695 while travelling through the Newton area towards Wigan, described the local landmarks as he came upon them, describing locations along an older road route than the current A49, I suggested that it is only on this route, that Kuerden could have described Red Bank Mill beside the Stone Bridge at Red Bank, and then not later on his journey also describe Newton Hall or Mill. If this is correct then the current road route which passes the front (west) side of the Mill Stone Pub must 'not' have been the main road in 1695, it is unlikely that Kuerden would not have taken the 'main' road as he was describing the route so that other travellers would be able to follow his directions, so I wondered why and when road route was altered to the current route. If Kuerden in 1695 travelled the older route up behind the pub and across the top of the hill into Newton, then he might have been one of the last people to travel it, as by 1745 when Benjamin Yoxall produced the Legh estate Map, the road was drawn taking the current route, passing infront of the pub, The field systems that the Mill Stone pub and road crosses look to have been sliced in two by the newer road route, this isn't something that has not been done before, in 1811 although a few years later the same road at Red Bank was again re-routed cutting through the older fields system.
Hopefully you can see from this, that in 1695 the road went right past Red Bank Mill, but further towards Newton it bypassed Newton Mill by heading to Newton over the top of the Hill and dropping down into the village via what is now Southworth Road. Then in 1745 the road had been re-routed at the northern end, to go past Newton Mill, and then in 1811 the road was re-routed at the southern end, it bypassed Red Bank Mill, taking the more direct straighter route to Newton. Mills were important features of the manorial estate, providing an essential service to both the lord and his tenants and acting as a valuable source of income for the lord. There were obvious advantages to having all your tenants and even maybe someone else's come to your Mill, and it makes sense to have the main road pass your Mill, with as easy access as is possible. I wondered why the road was altered, was it altered because it was an easier route for travellers, or was it altered specifically to make travellers go past the Newton Mill? Legal Issues Recently while reading through the archives at Liverpool Library, I came upon some documents that I think might help throw some light on the workings of the Mills, and some background to the local populations use of them. Richard Legh bought Newton Mill in 1660 from Thomas Fleetwood, The Legh's purchased or built the Red Bank Mill sometime later, Its first mention is in 1716, It seems that Red bank Mill later caused Mr Legh some problems, it obviously didn't have a good water supply for a mill, because it seems Mr Legh in later years initiated the diversion of the Newton Brook most likely making the weir and new mill leet, I found this out because in the Library there was a solicitors letter, addressed to Mr Legh Solicitors, from Mr Brotherton's, demanding the original course of the stream be restored...
Mr Legh's legal problem is dated 1786, this is 40 years after the Yoxall 1745 map that shows the main road has been moved to go past Newton Mill, I wondered whether Red bank mill was not in 1716 the successful business that Mr Legh thought it should be, and that he moved the main road to go past the Newton Mill, to improve that mills turnover. Eventually Mr Legh or somebody had the idea to divert the water course at the Red Bank Mill, and this probably worked wonders, but then having to restore the original water course might have been the last straw for Red Bank Mill, so this infact maybe the reason that in 1811 the road was moved away from the Mill, maybe Red bank Mill was basically out of business by the 1811 road movement? In an attempt to get more and more people to use his Mills, Mr Legh from 1716 onwards seems to have set about making sure that all his tenants had sections in their leases that forced them to grind corn at Mr Legh's Mills. In Liverpool Library, I found details of work undertaken sometime in the mid 1980s by A. Duffy that assessed the leases held in the Legh Estate papers by John Ryland's Library, by going through the papers, I found the following..
It seems that Mr Legh and his solicitors were adding Mill clause's into most all lease's, this would of course help Mr Legh profit from the ongoing use of the mill, and I believe this started to happen in the period between Kuerdens visit in 1695 and the 1745 Map, that the reason the road was altered, was to help promote the Newton Mill. I can find no old references to Mill Lane, or the Mill Stone Pub that pre-date the earliest reference to the Mill, so It seems to me they are newer than 1695. The Newton Mill was excavated in 1985, but they found nothing to take the age of the mill back any further than the mid 1700s, and most all the work they did involved 18th century remains, the Newton Mill may have been much older, but nothing of the an older structure remained. By altering and adding the mill use sections into local lease's, this probably had impact on the Mills not within Mr Legh's control, this lease situation may have been what caused the Dean Mill to go out of business, and eventually disappear. A Conclusion? I suppose that what I am trying to prove, or show, is that when the Legh's bought into the local Mills in 1660, and that this family set out over the next 100 years, to push and pull the A49 road route, to suite their Mill Business's, getting as much passing trade, and as many lease's tied to them as possible. That its the Newton Mill which is the reason behind the Road movements, and not that its any easier a route. This has all been basically written 'on the fly'.. so I will probably read it back and hate it, or just delete it or just push and pull it around until it makes better sense, but for now, it will have to do. Steven Dowd Newton-le-Willows : Website Owner / Administrator
http://steven-dowd.co.uk -- Blog http://newton-le-willows.com -- History Site http://earlestown.com -- (same)
I had a message asking me where exactly the mills were located, so I have just highlighted the known ones on these maps
 Red Bank Mill  Bradley Mill  Steven Dowd Newton-le-Willows : Website Owner / Administrator
http://steven-dowd.co.uk -- Blog http://newton-le-willows.com -- History Site http://earlestown.com -- (same)
If locating more Mills in the area helps in your quest (& prove a theory)- I have noticed one that I pass every day going to Warrington.
It is still called the Old Mill House and here is a photo of it from the web- 
You will recognise it as being on the sharp corner on Golborne Road near St Owsalds well. I was first interested in this place due to the St Oswald story and the fact that legend says he was slain near a river at Wnwaed, and of course there is no river in this area NOW- but it was always my theory that one would have existed in this area as an extention of the present brook centuries ago. Most corn mills (I believe) tend to need water as a source of power hence my interest in this house. It is presently up for sale and the estate agents brief reads -
Is it true that all mills did near to be a source of water? It is just that there is a farm on Newton Road (on the right if you were heading towards Lane Head), which still has an old building in the ground that looks to be in very good condition. It is like a large barn with big chimneys and looks every inch like a Mill to me- though I can't see an water in the area to power it. Sorry can't be more specific re location- I think its the next farm on your right after you pass the Travellers Rest. Do either of these 1 (or maybe 2 mills) fit in with your theory re roads networks in the area? PS: further down this same road heading towards Pennington is the "Old Mill Bistro". Maybe its just a name? Cheers Sheila
Hi She
I have spoken with Bob about this place near St Oswalds well, and although it could well be a Mill, there is nothing in any written evidence that I have ever read, which mentions a Mill in that locality, OK, this doesn't rule it out, and maybe I haven't read all the known histories, or missed it, but mills were the hubs of local communities, and I find it odd that one 'doesn't' get mentioned. Because of the historical tale concerning St Oswalds well, there is quite a bit of history text available to read about that area, there is nothing that I can remember concerning a mill. If I remember right, one of the more recent maps, shows the building or one of them locally to be a mill, but its a recent map, and the ones before do not mention it, even though they mention by name the other mills. I may be wrong, I will have to check, but i am sure when looking at this with Bob, I found it was first mentioned as a Mill only as recent as the 1908 Map, and that previously it isn't mentioned. I am sure there was something else odd about it, She' is the 'mill' that's for sale on the Hermit Pub side (south side) of the Road, not the north side, in which case it is on the opposite side of the road to the stream? It could be, that its been a Cotton Mill, Red Bank is marked on most all the maps as a Cotton Mill, in which case it would not have served as large a section of the community, and so not get mentioned, but with things like this that still exist, I find it hard to understand how they cannot get mentioned somewhere in one book or another. Steven Dowd Newton-le-Willows : Website Owner / Administrator
http://steven-dowd.co.uk -- Blog http://newton-le-willows.com -- History Site http://earlestown.com -- (same)
Hi Steven
Its on the opposite side to the Hermit (the same side as St Oswalds well). I am sure that those archeological reports you sent me a copy of ages ago (pre Parkside proposal vague spec of the area) ...have something to say about this old Mill. The road dips a great deal here and it gets badly flooded in winter. I should know as my car has had to swim through it a few times. It is also on (or very near) what I guess would have been the natural track of brook/river had its water supply maybe not been diverted by Mr Legh. I also wondered why the very sharp bend right where the alleged Mill is located. Its right on that 'dangerous corner'. I have always noticed it as I always slow down here. Cheers Sheila
Hi She
Ok, I wasn't 100% which building you meant, but this confirms that you mean this one..  This is what the local Maps can tell us... The building is shown on the 1933 Map as a St Oswalds Mill (Disused)  The building is shown on the 1923 Map as St Oswalds Mill  (this is not a smaller building, its just the Urban District Council boundary line has blocked out the building with the black line from the border shown on the map) It is shown on the 1908 Map as St Oswalds Mill  In the 1890s OS Map, there is no mill or any building on the site  on the above map, I understand that "4ft RH" that is near to the location of the 'missing mill building is a boundary mereing abbreviation which means "4 feet from the root of the hedge" In the 1840s OS Map, there is no mill, or any building on the site.  It seems to me that the St Oswald's Mill, if it was ever a mill, was built sometime between 1894 - 1908 and that it was just named St Oswald's Mill for the sake of it, it doesn't ever seem to have been a Mill that shows in any records other than the new building name that appears on the later maps. If anything in that area had ever been a Mill, then I would suggest it was possibly Pipers Halt, which is the building that I marked BLUE in the 1840s map. Steven Dowd Newton-le-Willows : Website Owner / Administrator
http://steven-dowd.co.uk -- Blog http://newton-le-willows.com -- History Site http://earlestown.com -- (same)
So am I right in thinking that you believe it was a more recent building/Mill then? Do you think a river/brook could have run past/through here and also- any ideas about the sharp abrupt bend in the road? Sorry- don't want to move this topic away from the Mill/Road network subject- just interested.
By the way- I actually got a definate location for the other old Mill type looking builiding on Newton Rd as I drove past it today. It is actually not past the Travellers rest, but is nearer to Newton. Driving towards Newton, just before you get to the Bulls Head, its on the left hand side just before Sandi_wottsits Hall (and on the same side of the road). If you get a chance to take a peek at this old Mill type building it is certainly worth a look. If I get chance I will take a photo sometime. 
Not the best Google image in the world= I think you have to see this building at ground level May not be of any interest- just know its not a normal barn though.............. Cheers Sheila
I found 2 Mills - (corn) in the 'locale' ie one in Ashton, near Ashton Heath,and the other at Bank Heath,Golborne, only a stones throw from White Door Dam, they are both on Millingford Brook.
I just wondered if, even though they are out of the area, if they fit in with your road and mills research/theory? The one at Ashton looks to be totally lost, but the Golborne one, may just still have a building left. If so, then at least you could see what a typical mill looks like, to aid in spotting other possible mills ? Pod
Good idea Pod. I went onto Google images to try and see what an average corn/flour Mill looked like so I could id what the barnlike building with the funnels/chimneys was on Newton Road. That was prior to this post as I had been curious about the history of this structure for a while.
However I didn't see anything on Google that one could describe as typical. There is the Mill at Dunham Park - but this seems rather grand with a big waterwheel. I am not sure that the Newton Mills (& nearby areas)were quite so grand. Maybe it all depends on what era we are looking at here? On another point (as a clue to the Mill industry)- what happened to all the old Millstones that must surely be still hidden somewhere? I have a theory that Thos Legh's clock in the hotel at Haydock carpark- was an ex millstone. It was made out of granite, had a hole in the centre and a clock seemed an ideal reusable purpose. Maybe this was the Barons Hill millstone and maybe the date on the clock is a clue as to when the Mill ceased to be functional? If that is the case- are any other millstones hidden anywhere that could offer up clues as to the Mills demise? Cheers Sheila
Typical granite mill stone-one of many designs- but all same sort of circular size / granite / hole in the centre-
Just to show that some were re-used and decoared as ornaments - 
and the Thos Legh clock that was on St Peters once- 
so maybe something happened to the Newton Mill in 1794 if this is a millstone from Mr Leghs Mill???? Cheers Sheila
Hi She
Its an interesting theory, could be correct, but I am not sure that the hole in the middle of the clock face is as big as it would be if it had been a same sized mill stone. An old Mill stone from Windmill Hill on Newton Common is being used as a Wwell capping stone in the farm yard at Pat Colliers farm off Swan Road, its about 4 1/2 ft diameter, I have a photo of it somewhere, will try to find it. The Mills at Newton and Red Bank both had the water flowing underneath and through the mill, with the water wheels internal to the building, the Bradley Mill at Sankey Valley, by the viaduct, had an external water wheel, on the side of the building. A few years ago, the farmer was clearing the area near this mill with a tractor / digger and found a broken millstone in the area he was cleaning out.  Bradley Mill by Sankey Viaduct.  Sankey Viaduct The top illustration seems to be trying to show the a rosy, laid back country life, the lower is probably more to the truth. The group of people in the top image are stood on what was a swing bridge / sluce gate, that could be closed to divert the Sankey River so that it had to pass through the cutting which the Water Mill was placed. Unfortunately the lower image isn't a very good quality print, but it looks like the ruins of the Mill are on the right side of the image. I think the building locations in both images are probably out of position with reality, but I believe the top image to be the more realistic view of the valley Steven Dowd Newton-le-Willows : Website Owner / Administrator
http://steven-dowd.co.uk -- Blog http://newton-le-willows.com -- History Site http://earlestown.com -- (same)
Here (eventually) is the photo of Sandup Farm on Newton Road. I was curious as one doesn't often see a barn like building with a chimney or funnel. I was wondering if this looked like some sort of a Mill.
Any theories anyone? 
Staying on the subject of Mills- the old Mill house near "St Oswalds Well" still interests me. As you pass it on the road, it looks to be just 2 storeys high. However when you look at the back it looks 3 storeys high.The land dips down a fair amount at the back. To be honest- from the rear of this house it looks every inch like a Mill. I would love to prove that some water once ran past the back of this building, possibly prior to the Baron of Newton diverting the natural course. I guess it just makes the St Oswalds Well story more credible. Just noticed also that the place opposite is called the "Monk House". I know this is wandering away from the Mill subject a little, but I just think that the names of the local places and roads seem to suggest something of religous significance as in... Hermitage, Monk, Pilgrim. I think its a shame that this old myth hasn't been investigated more. Sorry for rambling- but thats my Mill contribution. Cheers Sheila
Hi She
I am not sure what you mean about proving water ran behind the house at Hermitage Green, the brook is shown on the maps above running right past the back of it, you mention it being diverted, but I am not sure where you get that from, the house may well have been a mill, but as the maps show above, it is only recently built, only appearing on the maps for the first time in 1908, for this reason i am not sure if it might just have been named 'mill' than actually every having been one. My own thought is that its named 'Mill' as against a possible name of 'Dunroamin', that its just a fancifull name, and has no historical reference at all, I cannot see there being much call to build a new MIll of any kind in Hermitage green in the c1900 period. There are a few detail in a text from one of the Victorian societies about the Monks House, and Hermitage Green, saying that it was an offshoot to the friary in Warrington, I have somewhere here a history of Warrington that also makes some mention of this. I am sure some of the texts are available on books.google.com The building you have shown the picture of with the chimney looks similar to chimneys that I have seen on farm feed roasting buildings, have you looked on the older maps to see whether it is listed as a works, or malt kiln type business Steven Dowd Newton-le-Willows : Website Owner / Administrator
http://steven-dowd.co.uk -- Blog http://newton-le-willows.com -- History Site http://earlestown.com -- (same)
Thanks Steven....
To answer both questions..... 1) Some people have argued that St Oswald could not have been slain in this location as he (& his men) were killed near a river that ran red with the blood of his men (according to legend) - and there is no river in this area. However there is a brook and I think it could have been bigger once. You menioned that some Baron of Newton diverted some water flow so that his mill at Newton received more water....or possibly caused an issue with other Mills getting water. This is why this interested me. 2) Sandup farm- I have no idea what this is which is why I asked the question. I don't have access to all the old maps as I don't have all the research backup others have. Im still a bit of a novice at all this...although learning fast. Hope that clarifies things.............. Cheers Sheila
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